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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:23 pm
Posts: 89
Location: Buford, GA USA
Dewman418 wrote:
How much was he revving when it blew apart cause I know plenty of guys that have fourth over and has had no problem on the street with late model cylinders they don't go 140 maybe 85 or 80 but have had no problems at all. :?:


Big difference between the street or drag racing and road racing. You're not going max rpm once but repeatedly for 20 minutes. Add in a track with a long straight where you maintain max rpm for an extended period each lap on a hot day and the heat load an air cooled engine has to absorb is astounding.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:33 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
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JimH, we never used an overbore cylinder on any H2R factory engine, that would have put us over the AMA size limit for the engine.

That said, we also had numerous issues with pistons and cylinders when we were forced to go to street cylinders, from the special, altered stud first H2R cylinders, but, the worst issue was the forged pistons. We had the factory forged H2R pistons literally collapse a few thou on the first warm up in the pits, and more on the first couple of laps on new pistons. The skirts literally had not enough support, and bent inwards, making for excessive clearance, which allowed more rock over in the bore, beating the piston up even more.

This would then allow flexing of the wrist pin boss area of the piston, eventually cracking the pistons, and pulling the pin bosses out of them, and, whammo, crash, bang, disaster.

We'd have to set the piston clearance to .003 to begin, and it got worse real fast. To make things worse in early 1973, the factory determined that it was wrist pin flex that was causing the pistons to frag themselves, and literally went form 16mm to 18mm in diameters, on the same 16mm forged pistons. Things got seriously worse, in one fast heart beat.

Finally, the factory got its act together, and asked Ford for assistance, came up with a centrifugal spin cast piston, auto-thermic and austinitic, with serious ribs on the skirts and more strength in the pin bosses, which we installed with .001 clearance. Those pistons worked well, didn't collapse, didn't have rock over problems, and lived long,and prospered, didn't tear up rings like the forged pistons did.

This was basically what racers of all sorts had with Yamaha pistons form the TD series engines, YDS derived, to the RD derived TZ, forged pistons in the TD, cast in the TZ's. We finally paid ART pistons (Azumi Rendering and Turning) to build a few sets of cast pistons, and, the factory finally saw the light.

I have never seen, nor worked with a Wossner forged piston, but, I know I wouldn't want it in one of my engines if I couldn't set it up as tight as possible, like right down to .00125/.0015. Big piston clearances in two strokes are just begging for ring and/or piston problems, with adverse cylinder issues as well.

On my almost Laguna Seca Yvon H2R spec street H2A, I ran the same set of pistons and rings for 20K, before the bike got stolen, and had no ring/piston/cylinder issues. I pulled it down once in all those miles, to de-carbon the ports, didn't need anything else, and, it used stock cast H2 street pistons and rings, two per cylinder.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:37 am
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Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
40 years of technology goes a long way......... :thumbup: The Wossners are a work of art......

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:59 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:13 am
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Location: Auburn Ca
Cool good to know then 72.5 on mine should be fine thanks. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:15 am 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
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I am not knocking the Wossner's, but, I understand they are forged, haven't ever seen one in person, and if that is true, and they need to be clearanced already worn out loose, just like those factory forged H2R pistons were, I just don't want them in my engines.

A lot of good people thought Obama would be a great leader, he collapsed, way too much clearance right from the start, and, has mostly broken the whole thing, exactly like those H2R pistons. Why would I want another like him, or, pistons like those factory forged ones in my life?

Would someone please post a couple of pics of the Wossner pistons, the undersides, showing the skirt areas, please, and, what clearance do they suggest for hone-in, please???

YES, times, people, design, and, metallurgy change, please enlighten me on tech update of the Wossner pistons, so I can make my own decisions on them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:54 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:34 pm
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Location: North Central NC
The Wössner recommended clearance for H2 pistons is 0.0027".

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:11 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:25 am
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WOW, .0027, WAY too lose for me. It seems, just like any other forged piston that isn't austinitic, nor auto-thermic, their expansion rates are fairly severe, and, not stable around their diameters.

I wonder just what a person could get away with for a much tighter piston clearance with them? But, they'd still have the uneven expansion characteristics to deal with, and that would be the Achilles heel of the whole thing.

Thanks, Jim.

Anyone have pics of the skirting strengthening rib areas, please.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:25 pm 

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:00 am
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Location: Southern Ontario, Canada
http://www.fastfromthepast.com/servlet/ ... -H2/Detail


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:29 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:23 pm
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Location: Buford, GA USA
You can see pictures of them here:

http://tinyurl.com/lvfsfhb

Though I understand what your point is from a technical point of view the process of making forged pistons has advanced a great deal over the last 40 years. These pistons are designed with current state of the art in CAD software along with FEA and thermal stress analysis packages. They are made using alloys that did not exist back in the day on fully automated machining centers.

But for me, the fact these pistons have carried me to 9 WERA vintage national championships with no piston failures of any sort - not even a mild seizure - over the last 9 years tells me they are a very good product.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:39 pm 
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Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico
Forged pistons just expand a bit more when up to temp. So the clearance closes up, so aren't really loose at all. :thumbup:

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