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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:45 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:07 am
Posts: 85
Location: Sweden
BBP! Yea just realized Nev. did some posting here a few pages ago, wish he would shim in again and share some info on his iggybox.
Saw it on his site but want to know more.. maybe i'll email him? Yep this thread is really good! :thumbup: And it just got even better, great info there Jorgen! :clap:
I'll guess my kids have to do without present's this xmas, me needing new heads and an iggybox.. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:54 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:04 pm
Posts: 2223
Location: Just north of Toronto, Ontario
I would have thought the other way around Jorgen, advancing heats things up and retarding cools things down...
I was under the impression the retarding of the timing just makes up for the quicker cycle time because the speed of the flame front remains constant.
Any tips on how the unit is setup? Ideally to clone the stock curve for a base point and go from there.
I have a friend that has one and he mentioned that the timing plate had to be modified to be able to set static timing to 30 deg. In my mind, I guess that makes sense since the unit only retards but only a guess?

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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:02 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 am
Posts: 797
What heads now? Stock?

And you must do a dynotest, it is close to nonsense trying to set up the zeel without a dyno pre and post programming. And you may also have many runs to set it up in the best way for your engine. And to make this even more difficult: Change of ignition timing, may also require jetting.

Jorgen

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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:07 am
Posts: 85
Location: Sweden
Yepp, stock heads for now, will send the 165psi ones to Ebbe for mod. Yes retarding ign. cools engine and give you more heat in pipe witch also will result in higher rpm. peak =more hp :clap: Yep, more timing needs more fuel. Your prob. right about dyno it Jorgen, maybe i have to do a trip to norway after all.. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:55 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:04 pm
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Location: Just north of Toronto, Ontario
For sure a dyno is a good tool, but I only asked what you did to setup the initial curve, I assume you started with trying to clone the stock box for a baseline, then went from there?
Did you need to modify your ignition plate to get more advance?
I'm not trying to challenge, just an attempt to understand the process in getting the Zeel box mounted and functional.

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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:55 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 am
Posts: 797
Walms wrote:
I would have thought the other way around Jorgen, advancing heats things up and retarding cools things down...
I was under the impression the retarding of the timing just makes up for the quicker cycle time because the speed of the flame front remains constant.
Any tips on how the unit is setup? Ideally to clone the stock curve for a base point and go from there.
I have a friend that has one and he mentioned that the timing plate had to be modified to be able to set static timing to 30 deg. In my mind, I guess that makes sense since the unit only retards but only a guess?


Hi Andrew. No, it is the opposite. And here's why:

When ignition is retarded, it starts later. Then the combustion starts later. Then the combustions ends later, thus the expansion of the burnt gases starts later, and ends later. That means, there is more energy left in the cylinder, expansion gases, when the process starts later. Hence, hotter exhaust gases.

"Is it useful to slow down combustion on some operating phases? Yes and no. I will try to explain this in a little physics lesson.
No matter which way the piston is moving, as long as there is combustion, the pressure in the cylinder keeps rising. Only after combustion is finished the expansion of the burnt gas can begin.
Slow combustion means that the piston is already well on its way down before expansion can begin; it means less expansion for the burnt gas in the cylinder before the exhaust ports open.
Less expansion means less cooling down of the gas in the cylinder: it is still hotter when it enters the expansion chamber. In hotter gas the speed of sound is higher and that means a higher resonance frequency for the cylinder-pipe system, so it works better at high rpms.

But how do you slow the combustion speed down? Less squish? Mixture too rich? You do not want to do that...
Fortunately there is a simpler solution. We do not slow combustion down; we just start it later: we retard the ignition timing. As far as the exhaust gas temperature in the expansion chamber is concerned, the effect is the same: the engine runs better at high revs.
That is the reason for programmable ignition systems.
Below the power band the ignition advance can be more than 30° so that there is a whole lot of expansion; the burnt gas contains hardly any energy when it enters the exhaust pipe, so the exhaust pulses that arrive at the wrong moments at low rpm, are weak and will not disturb the scavenging too much."

Not mine own words off course, but I understand them now. Now, it is time for others as well.

And this come from a former GP tuner, NOT a wannabe tuner you see all over the internet. In fact, it is VERY difficult to find out what is valid information, and what is not. Information given from people making the most powerful 2-strokes ever made, is very useful.

Best
Jørgen

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72 H2, 72 H1B, 74 H2, 74 H2 Cafê Racer, 71 F8 Bison


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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:04 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 am
Posts: 797
Walms wrote:
For sure a dyno is a good tool, but I only asked what you did to setup the initial curve, I assume you started with trying to clone the stock box for a baseline, then went from there?
Did you need to modify your ignition plate to get more advance?
I'm not trying to challenge, just an attempt to understand the process in getting the Zeel box mounted and functional.


On my H2, I manage to get 30 degrees static ignition just by turning the base plate max, and all three pick up sensor the same. Dont remember the distance before TDC, around 5mm if I remember correct. 3,13 is stock. But that is an easy calculation for you to do.

Don't know about the H1 though.......

Yes, I did a lot of dyno testing, and went from 104 to 109 as said. But my mid range was still bad after a lot of advance, but I got 3-4 horses back. The mid range on these cylinders with jollymoto was bad, but with Higgspeed it was ok. But I lost a lot on top using Higgspeed, but the bike became more streetable with my test cylinders.


Jørgen

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72 H2, 72 H1B, 74 H2, 74 H2 Cafê Racer, 71 F8 Bison


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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:09 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:04 pm
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Location: Just north of Toronto, Ontario
I wish I had the excuse that I've been tipping cups but no... :lol:
Anyway, better for everyone if I say something stupid if it brings on a better explanation in the end. Thanks Jorgen.

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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:40 am 

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:26 am
Posts: 797
:D
You want the drawings for an actual GP-exhaust as well, and upscale? :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I think it is great such kind of info is revealed from GP enginemakers, there is just too many myths and assumptions about general principles of 2-strokes around.

Off course, there is differences between a racing GP-bike, our triples, direct drive carts etc etc. But some basics and fundamentals still apply to any 2-stroke engine, like the part you just read.
Well, IF you have expansion chamber off course. Hardly any need for adjusting exhaust gas temp by ignition timing if you don't have much of a returning wave regenerated from the exhaust pipe. Don't know, but I do not think a stock pipe is very effective on that part.

Jørgen

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72 H2, 72 H1B, 74 H2, 74 H2 Cafê Racer, 71 F8 Bison


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 Post subject: Re: H2 flatspot issues
PostPosted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 12:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:04 pm
Posts: 2223
Location: Just north of Toronto, Ontario
Of course Jorgen! Send everything to walms@hotmail.com :)
Actually the Vanik software comes with a couple 2 stroke models as well to play with... RS125, TZ250G and 350 YPVS

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